Skip to content
Follow Us

Get the best of Capacity Interactive delivered to your inbox.

This field is for validation purposes and should be left unchanged.
In the Middle
Episode 12

In the Middle

CI to Eye with Jeff Hiller and Jenn Harris

This episode is hosted by Erik Gensler.

0:00 / 0:00


Erik, Jeff, and Jenn discuss the life of a working actor, the power of creating one's own content, and what arts administrators can do to best collaborate with artists.

Erik Gensler: If you’re enjoying CI to Eye, please share it with a colleague. I also invite you to please rate and comment on iTunes, which helps us get discovered. We love hearing from you on Twitter, Facebook, or the contact form on the Capacity Interactive website. Please don’t be shy, and thank you so much for listening. Welcome to CI to Eye. I’m Erik Gensler. I’m an entrepreneur, an arts marketer, and on a lifelong quest to learn and grow personally and professionally. In this podcast, I interview leaders and thinkers inside and outside of arts marketing to understand how we can grow to be the best we can be. My goal: to see eye to eye. This is a unique episode, both in format and guests. I interviewed two New York City based actors, Jeff Hiller and Jenn Harris, who recently started a podcast called Touche, that I listened to regularly. The podcast is about being in the middle of their careers and of their lives. Jeff’s credits include appearances on 30 Rock and Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson on Broadway. Jenn’s credits include starring in the off-Broadway show, Silence: The Musical and The film Gaby. Their podcast is hilarious, honest, and hugely entertaining. I often laugh out loud listening.

Jeff Hiller: There’s this crew of people who are working actors who make a living as an actor but are not famous, who are crawling with claws across the career. And so we’re sort of in the middle. We’re middle aged, we’re in the middle of our life. We’re in the middle of our careers. Hopefully we’ll continue to grow and have things become bigger and stuff, but at this moment, this is what it’s like to be with us.

Erik Gensler: I invited them to talk about what it’s like being a working actor in the middle of their careers, the empowerment of creating their own podcast, and we ended with some advice for arts organizations to get the most out of their relationships with artists.

Jeff Hiller: I’ve learned a lot from listening to your podcasts. Really. I don’t know what Jeff’s told you, but I may be fan girl number one because I’ve listened to every single one really? And Oh yeah, from the beginning.

Jenn Harris: I love that you’re a fan. If the listeners can’t see, there is a whole entire room of people actually working on computer. This is a real place. This is a place that you think of when you think of consulting firm New York Fancy with kitchens and things, and a poster of company on the wall.

Erik Gensler: You know what? Yeah, the casting director of girls, or no, sorry, what is it called? The people who location scout…
Well, the location scout of Girls came because we were on some blog called Office Luvin’ which sounds… something gross about that name. Office Luvin’, L-U-V-I-N, office luvin dot com, and well, we had pictures in there. I was on Office Luvin’, and so the location scout for Girls came and was like, oh, this would be perfect for Shoshana’s marketing job. And they came twice. They pay you a lot of money.

Jenn Harris: Yes ma’am! Yes ma’am.

Erik Gensler: But I was so excited for the, A, street cred of being on girls, and then how much they were going to pay, which is…

Jenn Harris: Like, yeah, that’s insane.

Jeff Hiller: So what happened? Did they take it?

Erik Gensler: So they strung us along, and then Lena didn’t approve the shot. She wanted something less industrial feeling. So we got to Lena, which is…

Jeff Hiller: That’s impressive.

Jenn Harris: That’s great.

Erik Gensler: So I started this podcast around the same time you guys started your podcast, and so I started listening to your podcast religiously every week, and it’s just like I get to spend an hour with Jeff and I met you. I just love your podcast. I love how honest and raw and vulnerable you guys are. And it’s so different than most of the podcasts I listen to, which are really like, I love Tim Ferriss. My podcast is, and I know you talked about Tim Ferriss.

Jenn Harris: I listen to Tim Ferris. I mean, he can get a little, gets a little bro-y for me sometimes. And I’m like, alright, we can stop crushing things. We can stop crushing things.

Erik Gensler: Can’t with the crushing.

Jenn Harris: And even with the, I’m going to interview someone who’s big on meditation or something. It’s like you’re still crushing your meditation.

Erik Gensler: Totally.

Jenn Harris: But I tolerate because he’s got some really great guests.

Erik Gensler: Amazing. And I’ve learned, excuse me, so much from him. How did you come up with the idea of the podcast? And I’d just love to hear who called who and how did that come about?

Jeff Hiller: Oh, go ahead.

Jenn Harris: I’ll start out by saying the accuracy of who called who, because we actually do call each other on the phone. I’m a caller and Jeff picks up and we talk. There you go. For accuracy. We actually do call each other. Maybe that’s key. I don’t know. You can also edit that out.

Erik Gensler: You edit stuff out, or not, of the podcast. How many times have I heard on your podcast? We’ll just edit that out and it just says it’s there. We’ll just edit it out.

Jenn Harris: Plus, I think it’s funny to say we’ll edit it out and I don’t edit it out.

Jeff Hiller: I was living in Los Angeles and I moved back to New York for personal, more than professional reasons, and I wanted to do something to just have something that was mine in New York. And I thought a podcast would be nice. You didn’t have to buy costumes and rent space. True. So I was like, what’s a podcast? And I was also turning 40 and being like, oh God, I’m still in this slog of acting. And we often talk about the slog of what it’s like to be an actor, and I thought, what if we pressed record? And so we do it in Jenn’s bedroom and we sometimes have guests and sometimes we just, you’re very kind. Sometimes I would say we bitch and moan.

Jenn Harris: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We often bitch and moan. Relatable. Relatable.

Erik Gensler: Yeah. I really think it is. I think it’s super relatable. I even told you, I thought I just appreciate the honesty and it’s also sort of what I’ve really enjoyed is watching Jenn pull things out of you and enable you to do things and watch the story of the milk at the coffee shop.

Jenn Harris: Milk is such a good story. It’s such a through line of our podcast.

Erik Gensler: Well, first of all, let’s take a step back before we get into the milk story. So you’re both working actors and what I remember is talking about, did you almost call the podcast? Something about being in the middle. What does in the middle mean? When you said you wanted to come back, you wanted to own something, you wanted, you’re talking about these conversations. What was the pitch?

Jenn Harris: Well, I mean, getting to that sort of backtracking bit and then answering this is I feel like personally I’m not, I have an agent, I’ve been doing this for a while. I have some great credits, theater credits. I’ve done a couple of film and TV stuff here and there. So it’s not like I’m brand new, but I feel like I am just crawling and slugging through sort of the mud of the industry and trying just nails, nails in the ground, trying to get to the next thing that might hopefully open me up wider. And I just haven’t gotten there yet. And a lot of my friends are the same way in every aspect of the art industry or creative industry, there hasn’t been that jump up that what that might look like is have my own apartment or do you know what I mean? Or be okay with buying health insurance if it’s a lot or just these or knowing like, okay, well this is leading to this and that, or I’ll have a bunch of residuals from that. I know it’s always a business of not knowing what’s next.

Jeff Hiller: And also, we know so many people who started out with us when we were 20 who have fallen away, and we know a few tiny few people who started out with us when we were 20 who are now —

Jenn Harris: Super famous.

Jeff Hiller: — hugely famous stars. And then there’s this crew of people who are working actors who make a living as an actor but are not famous, who are crawling with claws crawl across the career. And so we’re sort of in the middle. We’re middle aged, we’re in the middle of our life, we’re in the middle of our careers. Hopefully we’ll continue to grow and have things become bigger and stuff. But at this moment, this is what it’s like to be with us. And I think that there’s so many issues about aging and stuff. It’s different when you’re people who have a career and you sort of know this is a career. And eventually if I stick with it for 50 years, I’ll get a gold watch and I’ll have a really great pension, cute. The watch anyway. We’re not going to get a watch, even though we love accessories.

Jenn Harris: I love a free gift. We all know that.

Jeff Hiller: So the idea that discussing that and talking about that, what it’s like to be like, all right, I don’t know if I can have kids. I don’t have a steady source of income that I know exactly how much I’ll make from year to year.

Jenn Harris: And we’re the majority, the middle people, the super famous people are not the majority of working actors. We’re the people who are just working actors or have day jobs and also are working actors. You’re still a working actor. We’re the majority, not the famous people who always get to get interviewed and get to ask about their morning routines.

Jeff Hiller: Right. Why did you choose this role? They chose me. Yeah.

Erik Gensler: Right. One thing that you’re talking a lot about, or I’ve heard you talk a lot about Jenn, is the concept of having a washer and a dryer.

Jenn Harris: Oh my God.

Erik Gensler: And what that means to you and the struggle of being successful. And Jeff, I know your career better, we’re friends, but you’ve been on 30 Rock, you’ve been on Broadway, you’re at the Shakespeare in the park this summer, but you still feel like it’s unpredictable and you still feel like you’re crawling, that gesture you were making that…

Jenn Harris: We’re all animals in this room right now.

Erik Gensler: Which I find because I look at you and I talk about my friends and it’s like Jeff, my friend, the successful actor. But that doesn’t mean you have a guaranteed paycheck three months.

Jenn Harris: Right? I mean, that’s anyone. That’s Debra Messing if the show closes. Do you know what I mean? Debra Messing came up. I looked at the box of Crinkles and I said, that looks like Debra Messing with a mustache. Just kidding. Love you girl,.

Jeff Hiller: Deborah Messing’s fine. She’s got her own sitcom coming back.

Jenn Harris: No, I’m just saying that’s what I mean is if it ends, no one knows what we’re in a business of. Is there a role for you? Is there a part coming up? Will the show close and then you don’t have a show?

Jeff Hiller: But actors like that who have name recognition have a little bit easier if Deborah Messing wanted to, she could be on Broadway tomorrow.

Jenn Harris: Yes, exactly. And so, right.

Jeff Hiller: Jeff Hiller is not.

Jenn Harris: No.

Jeff Hiller: Cannot make Broadway happen tomorrow. But I’m going to audition.

Jenn Harris: Yes, if you can. If we can.

Jeff Hiller: Yeah. When they come along.

Erik Gensler: So how is your life as an actor different than what you sort of envisioned as a say, a 22 year old.

Jenn Harris: Oh my God, I need to take my glasses off for a second and rub my eyes and put them back on.

Jeff Hiller: Well, when you’re 22, you always just think, I’m going to be special. I’m going to have the EGOT. I’m going to win awards. And I’ll somehow break through and make it happen. And it’s not just actors that feel that way. I’m sure everyone starts out and they think my thing will be, I’ll be super successful at it, hopefully, if you have a nice self as a team. And I think that that’s just one of the lessons of life is that what you look at at 20 for what your forties will be like, or your sixties or what have you, are going to be very different. And that’s why we hold elderly people up as wise and sage because they can look back and be like hindsight. But I thought for sure I would. Well, honestly, when I was 20, I thought I’d be a social worker. I didn’t have the chutzpah to say, I’m going to be an actor. Touche. So it took me a long time to actually just have the courage to say, I’m going to try this. But once I did, I always thought, well, in 10 years I’ll be on my own sitcom and I’ll have money and that’ll be my retirement. So I don’t need to worry about retirement now.
Not a good plan. I don’t recommend it. There’s some fatal flaws in there.

Jenn Harris: Fatal flaws, yeah. I thought, I graduated from Boston University with a degree in theater, and I thought I would be doing Broadway shows. I would live in New York and I would do Broadway shows and I would do some television, and there I would have a savings account and build up a retirement account and all these things. And that’s just what I would do. And that hasn’t happened. And it’s kind of like, wow, even having to some people a successful career, it’s very humbling to sort of come to middle age and go, oh, I don’t have a fucking savings account. Don’t, sorry, can we cuss? Sure. Look at, I answered my own question, okay, have a fucking savings account or a retirement. And I’m like, whoa. Fatal mistake. But when would I have gotten, it’s just so difficult because in order to act, you have to have the time. The time it takes to try to build this career is really, it takes a lot. It takes a lot. I thought I’d have a washer dryer by now. I thought I’d be at least somewhere where I would at least have a washer, or at least anyway, it’s still the dream. It’s still the dream.

Jeff Hiller: Sure. And I think you also think you’ll have more choices than you do. I think the one thing that maybe is a little unique about this career is that the choices come, I mean, you can write and that can help you find choices, but as an actor, you really don’t have a lot of choice. You have a lot of begging.

Jenn Harris: You don’t choose what TV shows are being done, which would then therefore either will or won’t have roles that you would fit you or what plays are being done or what films are being made, even if you did just don’t have that choice.

Erik Gensler: So to the idea of the podcast, which is essentially casting yourself, right? You’ve become the producer and the talent. And in this world we live in now where anyone has access to a keyboard and a microphone or a phone that can make a video, you can create something. And I think that’s, as a marketer, and looking at someone who didn’t says you have no control or you’re at the whim of casting directors and producers, to take the bull by the horns and to create something, to tell your story, to put it out there in the world is a very powerful, I think an important gesture that I wanted to acknowledge on this podcast of the idea of creating content, of creating something that is going to introduce people to you, that you’re going to have a following. And I always say to arts organizations, who is going to be more successful when they have a show to sell the one that has 5,000 people on their email list, or 50,000 people on their email list or a social media following of a thousand or a social media following of 10,000. And how do you get following on social media? You share something that people care about. So now you are creating a community. I feel like I spend an hour a week with you guys and I’m rooting for you. That’s fabulous. And I hope other people are doing that. And do you look at it that way, as I think you’ve talked about stories where people who have created web series that have turned into something. Can you talk a little about that?

Jenn Harris: People who’ve created web series?

Erik Gensler: Or people that you know who have taken their career to the next level by creating something themselves?

Jenn Harris: Yeah. Well, I mean, I’ll say John Early and Cola Scola, who are two friends of mine, always made their own videos with my friend Daniel Ramola, who was the DP of all their work. And they always made their own, put together their own shows. Did them downtown, put their shows on Ars Nova. Cola Scola is always making videos. I mean, he’s a writer on Difficult People. He went to them himself and was like, can I pitch a pilot episode to you? And got on that way. I mean, these are people like hustling and constantly making their own content, whether Tweeting, Snapchatting, making short little videos, which is what people consume now anyway, the most, and getting themselves out there. And that’s what people have seen and they’ve completely made their careers themselves completely.

Jeff Hiller: And we’ve both done that. You created your own series.

Jenn Harris: I made a series that was in the Tribeca Film Festival. We’re trying to figure out how to release the rest and how that’s going to work at the end of the summer.

Jeff Hiller: And I’ve done web series and I sold a pilot and stuff like that because it gives you just the slightest bit of control. That said, even when you’re a writer, there’s not a ton of control when you’re looking for money. And I will say this sometimes at least I think, oh, if I create something, then it’ll actually happen. And that’ll be my key to success. And it sometimes depresses me when it doesn’t go anywhere. I wrote a whole web series, shot it, it’s on YouTube, you can find it. And all that’s done is take up some memory on YouTube. You know what I mean? It hasn’t propelled my career anywhere. That’s why I do the podcast is that I’m doing it for me as opposed to doing it only for some ulterior motive. And hopefully the podcast does get in something else. But I do love the podcast because it’s something that I just really enjoy creating. You know what I mean? And something that I really enjoy doing.

Jenn Harris: And this is how we talk to each other. We get together and talk about things that are hard and difficult and that are, or things we’re excited about and we’re super excited about and we’re like, our friends would love, I would love to have all my friends in the room and everyone can relate. So let’s just be of service so that people aren’t focused. I’m watching my friends now in the middle of their lives and career and getting really sad and frustrated and the energy, like you said, of being 2022 and coming to the city and being like, okay, okay. And each blow is fine. Like, well, I’m only 22. Oh, I’m 24. Oh God, I’m 27 and oh, I’m hitting 30. I, oh, I thought I’d have a family by now and washer dryer. And then it’s just now we’re getting in the forties and it’s like, oh boy, wow.
The pool energy, the temperature is really changing and really getting murky and it’s making me scared for my friends getting sad. And we’re, we’re excited about stuff Q and we’re also wiser and smarter, and we say no a lot quicker and save a lot of time and energy. We’re still learning that. But yes, we’re getting there, Jeff. We’re getting there. Ask for the milk, say no to the thing. Go pet your cat. But that too, and sharing that with everyone to be like, you’re not alone. You’re not alone. We’re all going to find the little things that get us back to that sort of clearer, crisper pool water. This is a terrible analogy, but — this is a terrible analogy.

Erik Gensler: I was talking to my, I have an executive coach that I work with, and I was talking today about entering middle age. I have a big birthday coming up. I’m turning 40.

Jenn Harris: I can’t wait.

Erik Gensler: And I think it’s an interesting age to be too, because you still feel young, you still feel like, and you still are young, and you still are young, and you still look relatively young, but you also have wisdom and self strength and an understanding of who you are in a less tolerance for bss. And it’s this sort of amazing Venn diagram to be in the middle of like, okay, you still have this youth and this energy, but you also know who you are. And I think in that way, it’s such a wonderful place to be. And you also realize what you can and can’t control, and how much of that’s going to keep you up at night and how much of it you can just let go.

Jenn Harris: And I feel like I have in the past couple years, I’m going to be approaching 40 in January as well, and I felt in the past couple of years, I want more responsibility. I also, just as an actor waiting for auditions to come in, your inbox isn’t enough for me. It’s just not, I want more responsibility. I want to handle more. I want to have more people relying or needing something or us collaborating together. And I can’t just sit around and wait. It doesn’t feel right.

Erik Gensler: I can tell you I wait for that podcast to come every week.
I really do. And I’m telling you, I just hope you keep going with it. I feel like, well, what we say to our clients is you can’t make videos with the objective of going viral because the chances of something going viral are so small. You have to make videos that either achieve from an organization, achieves some sort of marketing direct objective, get people excited about a show, or grab attention in a Facebook newsfeed, and what do you want people to do? You want people to watch the video and share it or come to your website, but the chances of a video going viral are slim to none. So with your podcast, and I also say for content creation, who, if you’re a theater in, I don’t know Nebraska, who in your city, who are the 10,000 super fans who just love theater, just make your content for those people and they will find you. We make this podcast for arts marketers. That’s all I’m talking to. There’s like 10,000 people that are going to care about what I talk about on this podcast, but this is for them, and that’s it. And so I feel like for your podcast, you’re making it for a certain group of people, and you should make it great for those people. And I think it really is great. But in your mind, who are those people?

Jeff Hiller: Just really quick about the viral video thing. Yeah, I say something else, I should go, you’re right. You cannot set out to create something that’s a viral video and nothing is that goes viral. That is, well, I guess maybe a video where you accidentally catch someone falling or something. But any video that you’ve written, the only thing that has gone viral is something that people just feel really passionate about and they’re never writing it for, creating it for just viral reasons that people catch onto it.

Jenn Harris: It’s about, to me, it’s just about truth and honesty. And if you’re forcing something, it’s like we talked about in our last podcast about comedy. To me, it’s not funny if it’s forced, if you’re making it, if it’s too knowing if there’s too much, like you said, trying to get a result out of something rather than just sit and be in what you’re trying to do. Yeah, it’s about truth and honesty. That’s why dog videos go viral, right? They’re not trying cats. Cats aren’t like…’cause they’re true. They’re just like, whatever the dog is doing.

Erik Gensler: The amount of laughs I get just watching my dog. Such a good example of being in the moment. So motivating. I know nothing about acting, but the motivation a dog has when a treat is coming out of the bag, their focus on that and their ability to be present.

Jenn Harris: I mean, same. I walked in like, those juices. It’s on my mind, girl. They’re all on the mind. You had treats in here and we walked in. Come on, now.

Erik Gensler: Look at this. You start with that one.

Jeff Hiller: Now this is what I will say though, about our audience, I want our audience to be people… People who are fun and funny, but who also have a deep side too, and who are feeling the blues sometimes because it’s a bit of a tears of the clown situation. Jenn and I, we’re both working actors, but there’s maybe two dramas on both of our resumes combined. We are comedians first.

Jenn Harris: Comedic actors, yeah.

Erik Gensler: Is that a bad thing?

Jenn Harris: Nope.

Jeff Hiller: No. It’s a great skill. It’s my niche.

Erik Gensler: Yeah. I mean, why is it tears of a clown?

Jeff Hiller: Oh, well, because our podcast is the time to be like, I mean, we make jokes obviously, and there’s lots of cackling, but it’s also the time to get a little real.

Erik Gensler: Right. I see.

Jeff Hiller: I don’t ever get to do that in my creative life otherwise. I do shows at the Upper Citizens Brigade Theater, which is a comedy theater, and…

Jenn Harris: You do musicals.

Jeff Hiller: It’s only a comedy theater, so you’re never going to get up there and be like, I’m sad because blank. So that’s what I like. So I think it’s also, I think more than anything, our podcast is for people who are middle aged.

Erik Gensler: Not just actors.

Jeff Hiller: I don’t think it’s just actors.

Jenn Harris: No. People have contacted us and they love it.

Jeff Hiller: You’re not an actor.

Erik Gensler: Are you saying I’m middle aged?

Jenn Harris: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Jeff Hiller: This is my theory on how to describe, if you’re middle aged, double your age, and imagine if someone died at that age, would you say, oh, they’re so young.

Jenn Harris: Oh god, yes. In this same age. Yes, absolutely.

Jeff Hiller: Really? 39 times two is what?

Erik Gensler: 78?

Jeff Hiller: 78.

Jenn Harris: That’s young.

Jeff Hiller: No one at 78 is like, oh, they had so much life to live.

Jenn Harris: Think about us. We take care of ourselves better now. All these things. We got all these life things going on. I take care of my shit. It’s going to be together.

Jeff Hiller: You wouldn’t be scanning the obituaries and be like, 78, what happened there? Shocking.

Jenn Harris: I hate you. I don’t like your theory.

Jeff Hiller: And we should say, we never talked about who are we aiming this at? We really were just like, I want to talk, press record.

Erik Gensler: But in my mind, I thought at some point early on, there was this idea that, and then it became a joke. But young actors just starting out in some ways to, or teaching them to hear Well, just to have that inspiration of like, okay, I’m going to be a working actor. Wouldn’t this be a great to, this is what it’s really like kid in Montana who wants to move to New York and be an actor that’s never been in your head as…

Jenn Harris: We’ve never, the only thing that’s ever in my, I’m being a hundred percent honest, the only thing that’s ever in my head is, yay, Jeff’s coming over. Literally. It’s like, we have to hang out with each other every week now, and that makes me happy.

Jeff Hiller: But that said, I do like that idea. I like that idea. And I think we often will say, Chita Rivera, she’s a real gypsy, but the only reason we honor her for being a gypsy is because she made it out of the chorus and on the leads. You know what I mean? And there is something about honoring people who are still just the straight up going to the coal mine actor. You know what I mean? They always talk about how Brian Cranston is this journeyman actor, but it’s like, well, yeah, but now he’s nominated for an Oscar and won all these Emmys and stuff. So he’s kind of not a journeyman actor anymore. He’s a star.

Jenn Harris: But he has that story to tell to where he got to.

Jeff Hiller: Sure.

Jenn Harris: No, but I know what you’re saying. Yeah. No, it’s great. If kids in Montana, I hope they’re listening.

Jeff Hiller: Yeah. Also get out of Montana.

Jenn Harris: No, it’s beautiful there.

Jeff Hiller: It’s true. But their Congress people are not.

Jenn Harris: I know. I know. Yeah. Oh, God, what a mess.

Erik Gensler: So our audience is arts administrators, people who do the real administrative business side of the work.

Jenn Harris: I love you. I love you.

Erik Gensler: One of the reasons I wanted to have you on is just to give the perspective of actors to marketing directors and the people who are getting people to come to the shows. And just in your experience of, do you have anything of any notable experiences or times that you’ve had good or bad experiences as an actor where you think an administrative staff has been really good or perhaps really not so good? And is there a way to bridge that gap where marketing directors or administrators, the whole institution could be more successful by figuring out that relationship better?

Jenn Harris: You mean when you get cast in a play and you go out of town to go do the play, and then it’s like, oh, here are the people that are going to help sell the tickets and how they approach you about helping to do a shoot or do a video, things like that. Yeah.

Jeff Hiller: Well, my thing is I’m absolutely a hundred percent on board to help. And anything we can do as actors to help sell the show to people is great. I’ll go sing at an event to whatever, get the name of the show out there. And the one thing I just don’t like, and what I really like is just when people are like, Hey, we need you for this. Would it be okay? What I don’t like is when they say like, Hey, will you make a little video? Yeah, no, and no. There’s like, oh, he’s a comedian. Will you just make a video? And there’s no sort of skeleton or direction. Yeah, there’s no idea or anything. They just want us to make often a viral video. Yeah.

Jenn Harris: Well, it’s just, yeah, you have to come with, we we’re going to work with you. Yeah. We weren’t hired to do the job. I mean, come to us with your sketch and your video idea and have it all planned out and make it easy because we’re probably in rehearsal or there’s other things that are going on for both of you, and you make it nice and clear. It’s like, here’s our idea. And of course, if you have any ideas, I love that. But when someone comes to me with their plan and their sketch and their this, and this is who’s shooting it and we’re going to edit it and blah, blah, blah, then I’m like, great. Slide me in and let’s do this.

Jeff Hiller: And if somebody’s excited about something, it’s absolutely infectious. And then people will say like, oh, what about this also? And what about this? Also as opposed to just, okay, how about we start with almost every show I’ve done, someone’s come to us and said, Hey, we want to do a little thing, and I’m all for it.

Jenn Harris: And if you have it put together, and also if you’re like, we are going to have coffee and breakfast, what do you want from Starbucks and what do you eat? It’s nice, and it’s just thoughtful and it’s —

Jeff Hiller: I’m obviously going to tweet about every show I’m in, but there sometimes can be social media people who are a bit slavish with how much they want you to tweet. And I do feel a little bit of an obligation to my social media —

Jenn Harris: Of course.

Jeff Hiller: — audience. And so I can’t just tweet all the time. Every day, all day about my projects. I have to also put into the rule…

Jenn Harris: Jeff, Jeff, what’s the rule? What’s the rule?

Erik Gensler: What is it? 60-40?

Jenn Harris: 40-30?

Jeff Hiller: 70-30?

Erik Gensler: 70-30. Close enough.

Jenn Harris: Wait, tell me. I don’t know.

Erik Gensler: Jeff told you in a podcast, but I’ll tell you.

Jenn Harris: I don’t listen to him.

Erik Gensler: You need do level three listening, Jenn. You’re on level one.

Jenn Harris: Go ahead. What is it again?

Jeff Hiller: It’s like you want 70% entertainment stuff and 30% sort of the medicine part. You want to put a little sugar on that medicine, and I absolutely feel that. And so if I haven’t made three or four fun posts, I don’t want to post three or four things saying, here is another ticket code.

Jenn Harris: And also, I mean, our social media platforms are, they’re our business too. They’re part of our business. So you can’t just take over our business. That’s our decision, how much we get to tweet. And not — honestly, of course I’m going to do it. I want people in the seats. I’m not acting in front of my mirror.

Jeff Hiller: And the way that the world of acting works is that while I might be doing a show, let’s say in Connecticut, I shot a TV show three months ago. That’s just airing now while I’m in Connecticut. So I can’t just be saying stuff about the show in Connecticut. I also have to say about how tonight on Hulu or whatever.

Jenn Harris: It’s a good platform. It’s a lovely, good platform.

Jeff Hiller: I’d take it in a heartbeat.

Erik Gensler: What’s something you’ve learned about? I love the idea of, I’m fascinated that you say this podcast is for people who are middle aged because, and I mean, it’s making me, I always sort of looked at your podcast. It’s like, oh, I’m an outsider looking in to this world that is very different than mine, and it’s very different than the other podcasts that I listen to. But when you frame it that way, it really sort of changes it in my mind really just about out. I talk about time on this earth and what changes in a person with more time on this earth and this sort of strength and consciousness one develops with age. And most of the podcasts I listen to tend to be more like, I don’t want to say self helpy, but Tim Ferris, which is very much about learning this or Chris the Tippet on being about, which is more new agey. But framing your podcast in that way too, of learning from your experiences and empathy for your life and what you’re taking from this crazy political climate. We’re in the work of what you do, how being pushed out of your apartment and how the world is changing and what we prioritize as a culture. I guess where I’m going of this is to ask sort of a bigger worldly question about your personal growth, which is what have you learned in the past year or few years that’s been profound in the way that you think?

Jenn Harris: I think I’m a lot smarter than I ever let myself be, and I’m way more capable of handling way more than I’ve ever allowed myself to because I always thought that I wasn’t smart enough, or I don’t have the verbiage or the dictionary in my head, or I am, oh, I’ve never done that before, so how could I possibly do that? Or, well, I guess I am just an actor, so that’s all I have. And I’ve learned that that’s just all me. That’s either old stuff that was taught, that’s old, familial when I was young sort of thing, or that’s that and a combo of me just thinking that I am just a, instead of I am A, B, C, D, infinite and I can do a lot of things and I can do a lot of things well or not even well, but I will always give a good shot at it. So why not? People don’t need you to be perfect. People don’t need that. People don’t actually want that. It’s not, it’s a good, there was something a good, I think it was Tim Ferriss’s last. It was about trying hard instead of being perfect. It’s like the attraction is in people just trying, we have all these reality game shows of people trying to win the race or trying, and we root for people who are trying.

Erik Gensler: Right. Well, that’s why I say public speaking, so many people are so scared of public speaking. I push a lot of my team to do public speaking, and it’s so liberating if you’re just like, understand the audience wants you to do well, the audience is rooting for you. Right? Of course. But I think what you’re saying is really interesting in that your whole career is getting said no to and the strength that you have to have as an individual. I watched Ryan my soon to be husband. Congrats. Go through that Congrat, thank you. And as an early 20 something or a mid 20 something, he was ill prepared, and he did not have, I certainly didn’t either, but didn’t have the personal strength to be able to deal with it.

Jenn Harris: I just don’t think I had the experience to know that you can’t take it personally. I think I learned, and I think that’s just as we get older, maybe we learned that, but I just don’t take it personally anymore because I’ve seen, I’ve been on the other side of the table and I see, oh, it’s, you’re not right for the part or everyone’s good who came in, or it’s, there’s a business to this. And so why would I take this personally?

Jeff Hiller: And I think my mom died about six months ago. And there’s just something about a personal tragedy that really, first of all, makes someone telling you that you’re not going to be in Pressing Matters on Broadway, really seem like low on the totem pole of bad things that could happen. And so that, I think as far as rejection has just completely changed my outlook completely on the career and everything. It’s like, ugh, who cares? But then also that event in my life in the last year or whatever has really, I, it’s a cliche, but it’s a cliche. It’s true. It’s really made me just value the life that we have, which is so short, which is something that we all have heard of million times, but there’s something about having someone close to you die that really makes you realize there’s so little time left, so why am I going to waste it crying about not getting that Sprite commercial. Sorry, I wanted it so bad. I know. You were good. I can really smile. It’s the money. But that also made me be like, I mean, that’s kind of one of a big part of starting the podcast too, was wanting to be able to talk about these feelings that are all up in you and get them out.

Erik Gensler: Wow. Yeah. So the podcast started right after your mom passed away?

Jeff Hiller: Not too far after. Yeah.

Erik Gensler: Have you found that people, this is just a out of the left field question, but are people weird about asking you about the death of your mom and people? Have you felt like, I don’t know how to approach those kinds of conversations? You’re thinking, one of my other friend’s mom recently died, and I just sent him a message. I’m thinking about you and I’m going to donate to the thing you put on Facebook, but I don’t know how much I can approach it beyond that.

Jeff Hiller: Yeah. I mean, obviously every single person is different.
And it’s a little, there are times when I’m like, oh, I don’t really want to talk about this right now. Don’t approach it with me. You know what I mean? But then there are other times when I just really want to say it. And the nice thing about having the podcast is having a little bit of a forum to sometimes talk about it when I want to. And not just that particular thing, but just about this podcast is this long form thing. And you don’t have to, I do do a lot of commercial work, and you can’t talk about feelings that you have. You can make one joke, that’s your own personal joke, but it’s quick and it’s got to not be offensive to Poland Springs or whatever. So that said, everyone, when people do reach out, it’s obviously very nice and lovely. But I can honestly tell you, there’s no one that I’ve been like, Hey, they never said anything about my mom. You know what I mean? Because still focused on you and everything. And I even after having that, a friend of mine’s father just passed away, and I am in the same boat a few where I’m like, what do I say?

Erik Gensler: Yeah. Oh, really? Even after.

Jeff Hiller: And also wanting to be like, I really feel like I know what you’re feeling, but also I don’t know what she’s feeling. Her relationship to her father is personal and subjective and different than my relationship was to my mother. And it’s just, I don’t know. I think that is one of those universal truths that, especially as we enter into, by the way, I was going to say fourth decade, but it’s actually technically the fifth decade of our life.

Erik Gensler: Wow. I know. Zero to one is one, or zero to 10 is one, 10 to 20 is thirty…

Jeff Hiller: So as it’s okay, we enter into the fifth decade of our life, that’s a universal truth that we’re all, I think everybody’s just dealing with. I think the most you can do is just listen, be willing to listen.

Erik Gensler: Yeah. I ask this to a lot of people in the podcast, but what do you think you’re best at and what are you working on improving? Oh, girl, we’re getting real here. We’re just asking the tough questions.

Jenn Harris: I think I’m good at physical comedy and to work on, what’s the other one?

Erik Gensler: What are you working on as a person to be better at for yourself?

Jenn Harris: Wait, can we talk about what you like about yourself?

Erik Gensler: Yeah, sure.

Jeff Hiller: Well, professionally, I think I’m really good at being funny and taking direction.

Jenn Harris: You are.

Jeff Hiller: I know how to find the funny in anything, and I know how to give the director what they want usually, unless they’re very opaque.
Personally, I think I’m really good at being a listener. I think I’m actually pretty good at that. I think that’s a real gift of mine. And professionally and personally, the thing I need to work on are kind of the same thing. We’ve talked about it in the podcast about the milk and the story is that I was at a coffee shop once, and I really wanted milk in my coffee, but I couldn’t see where the milk was, and it felt like too fancy of a coffee shop. So I didn’t ask, where’s the milk? And —

Erik Gensler: So you drink coffee black.

Jeff Hiller: Yes, exactly.

Erik Gensler: Even though you like milk in your coffee.

Jenn Harris: Yeah. And you paid for it.

Jeff Hiller: Exactly. So Jenn really was like, how are you doing? And hearing her say it, I was like, God, that’s such a good point. What was I doing?

Jenn Harris: Yeah, that’s crazy.

Jeff Hiller: And it kind of didn’t even come into my ear. It didn’t even enter my brain before that. So personally, I need to work on asking for the milk, and I need to do that professionally too. Meaning if I have a friend who is a director and he’s got a big show coming up that I want to be in, and I need to send him an email and say, hi, I’d like to audition for your show. Even though, honestly, even as I’m saying that right now, my palms are a little sweaty and my stomach is a little tense. So yeah, the networking part of life, which is basically just asking for the milk in your professional life, asking for your needs.

Erik Gensler: It’s powerful to notice and name. If you have a name for something.

Jenn Harris: That’s so true.

Erik Gensler: If you’re just asking for the milk, it’s so much easier.

Jeff Hiller: And asking for the milk would be saying, Hey, your manager is someone that I’d like to work with. Would you mind recommending me to them?

Jenn Harris: Yes.

Jeff Hiller: Which is something that I have a really difficult time doing.

Jenn Harris: I know. Same, same, same. Wait, but real quick. When you pass by clipboard people on the street, what do you do there? When someone’s like, hi, do you have a minute for… what do you say?

Jeff Hiller: Well, having been in New York for 15, 16 years, I have been able to now say,

Jenn Harris: I get it.

Jeff Hiller: I always walk with headphones and they don’t know if I’m on the phone.

Jenn Harris: Okay. I’m glad. I’m glad at least. Okay. I just wanted to check because it crossed my mind.

Erik Gensler: What do you do when people come at you with a clipboard?

Jenn Harris: I say, don’t talk to me. No, of course I don’t. I say if it’s amnesty, I say I’m a member. Because if I say, if it’s planned parenthood, it just depends. But normally I’m like, oh, no, thank you. I’m in a hurry. I say, but thank you. If it’s these places that I think are amazing, I say, but thank you for your work. As I’m like, no, but thank you for your work. I thank them.

Jeff Hiller: Or I’ll say, I’m late. Sorry, pal. That’s what I say.

Erik Gensler: I feel like the gay ones always target me.

Jeff Hiller: Oh, me too.

Erik Gensler: Right? They’re like, oh, I see one coming.

Jeff Hiller: Yeah.

Jenn Harris: Well, same. I see a friend of… her way. I see a big supporter on her way. Wait, we have to answer the question. We can’t leave without me saying what I need to work on. What’s the exact wording of this question?

Jeff Hiller: Personally, what are you working on to improve within yourself?

Erik Gensler: Jeff’s working on identifying weaknesses.

Jenn Harris: I’ll let Jeff speak for me. Asking for the milk. Mansplain. No, no.

Jeff Hiller: That was man joke.

Jenn Harris: Man joke. Dad joke. Sorry, dad. Patience. I would think patience is a little, it’s always been a tough one for me. And I’m trying to be more patient in my personal life because I’m a steam roller. I’m a —

Erik Gensler: You’re anus.

Jenn Harris: I’m an anus.

Erik Gensler: To his penis.

Jenn Harris: It’s an earlier podcast. You have to go listen. It’s titled Anus and Penis.

Erik Gensler: Type A. And then the P from Myers-Briggs.

Jenn Harris: Which suits me well. But I’m interested, I’ve been interested in the past couple of years about doing what’s radical for me, just to change up my life and my days. What’s radical if I always do this or I always do that. It’s like every morning I do this, or, oh, I always approach a script this way or whatever. I’m like, wait, what’s a radical move for me? Just because why not?

Erik Gensler: What’s totally radical, but what’s the last radical thing you’ve done?

Jenn Harris: I’m a person who’s been active my whole life, and I work out not at a gym, not in a budget, but free videos online and do it at home. And then I was just busy for two months, and I was just like, I don’t have time to work out. And for two months, I was just like, that’s radical for me to not move in some way. You just let yourself stop. Yeah. I don’t have time. And I was just like, I don’t have time. I don’t want to. And my brain was like, no, but it’s healthy and I have to stretch. I stretch. You know what I mean? And then I was like, no, I don’t want to do that. I don’t have time. I still don’t really have time.

Jeff Hiller: What a life.

Jenn Harris: What do you mean?

Jeff Hiller: To have the radical thing be like, I’m not going to actually…

Jenn Harris: Alright.

Jeff Hiller: Such an exciting thing.

Jenn Harris: That’s the joke.

Jeff Hiller: No, I truly am legitimately jealous and in awe. That’s why I think we work well together, is we do. I need someone like you in my life to be like —

Jenn Harris: — and I need someone like you in my life to be like… So there we go.

Erik Gensler: You do push each other in a really nice, fun and productive way and prod each other and make fun of each other and call each other out. And not afraid to have conflict either, which I think is super healthy.

Jenn Harris: No, we fight. We don’t fight, do we? Yeah.

Jeff Hiller: I’m actually pretty afraid of conflict. But you are.

Erik Gensler: No, but if Jenna has a dumb analogy, you’ll call it. You’d be like, girl, that you’re like, that analogy makes no sense.

Jenn Harris: Which I normally do. Jeff is a great, Jeff is so smart and so focuses me up sometimes. And I love that.

Jeff Hiller: And you are so good at, you are a multitasker and you do get things done. You are someone who gets things done. Whereas I will often be like, oh yeah, I meant to make a Reel two and a half years ago.

Jenn Harris: Well, I did too. And it just took a long time. But specifically in the real world, I am sorry. Reel world, we come across the real world. Anyway,

Jeff Hiller: That’d be a hilarious name of an editing company.

Jenn Harris: The Reel World.

Erik Gensler: The Reel World. That’s funny. So the podcast, to bring it back to the podcast, it’s called Touche. But what stuck with me from that first episode, it was about being in the middle of your career. How did you come up with the name Touche?

Jeff Hiller: Well, we came up with it in the first podcast.

Jenn Harris: We didn’t have a name.

Jeff Hiller: Well, we had a name and it was a little raunchy, and I got scared. I didn’t want to put…

Erik Gensler: Well, iTunes certainly wouldn’t let you put anything raunchy.

Jeff Hiller: And we wanted, the middle is actually kind of, what should be the name of it? But there’s that sitcom starring Patricia Heaton called The Medal. So I don’t know. It didn’t, and that’s about Middle America, which is definitely not what our podcast is about. So instead we just went with Touche.

Jenn Harris: Which is sort of a volleying back and forth of how we talk to each other and relate sort of a way of, someone will say something and they’ll be like, oh, well, you’re right.

Jeff Hiller: And we might be like Cougar Town where we misnamed our show.

Erik Gensler: Maybe that’s what’s wonderful about it.

Jenn Harris: Or maybe it could have been called, You’re Right. That’s another. Touche, a.k.a. You’re Right.

Erik Gensler: Yeah. But Jenn always throws in a touche at certain moments. It always brings it back. Right?

Jenn Harris: Because he’s normally right. And so I have to go oh touche. ‘Cause you call me on something.

Jeff Hiller: Well, yeah, that’s our catch phrase. I don’t know.

Jenn Harris: I’m fascinated.

Jeff Hiller: Infectious energy.

Jenn Harris: I’m so fascinated by the business aspect of the art world specifically, what — I feel like — That’s why I was so excited about listening to your podcast. I was like, yes. I was like, I’m excited to learn more. I feel like I don’t know enough about it. So your podcast is about, give me your pitch for your podcast.

Erik Gensler: So we do digital marketing for art and cultural institutions. And I talk a lot about digital marketing for cultural institutions. And I go to conferences and I talk about digital marketing for cultural institutions, and that’s what we talk about all day. And I wanted a platform where we could talk about other things, where we could talk about pricing, where we could talk about people development, where we could talk about professional development, or we could talk about what it’s like from an actor’s point of view, what it’s like, what can the arts learn from sports? What can the arts learn from social justice, nonprofits? We need a space to talk about inclusion and diversity in the arts. So that’s an area I’m really going to talk about in the future.

Jenn Harris: Why cultural institutions? What got you excited about that?

Erik Gensler: I feel like in one’s career, in order to feel fully fulfilled as a human, when your day is over and you dealt with a lot of things that are stressful, if you are not feeling that way in pursuit of something that is meaningful to you, life is much harder. It just is. And I worked in corporate America and I would work in my twenties very, very hard, and I would leave for the day frustrated and anxious and very unfulfilled. And so at some point in my twenties, I went on this quest to understand. I was getting these books. What color is your parachute? And what work should I do? I was actually, I was just trying to figure out, and one of the things they talk about is what do you really care about? What’s sphere really matters to you? And growing up, going to the theater, the thing that I felt like I most thrived in life at was high school choir and high school theater, and then in college producing theater and then going to the theater. And I was the kid who would take the playbill and read every word, every donor, every — here was like, who’s the accountant? Who’s all those credits? The really obscure credit page where it’s like “banking by…”

Jenn Harris: Of course, of course.

Jeff Hiller: But see, and now you’re doing this thing that you’re passionate about that excites you, that thrills you, and it’s just blossoming and blossoming more. I mean, I think that’s the best advice anybody can give to an arts administrator, right? Yeah. Following the passion, following the interest.

Erik Gensler: Well, that’s why we do it. I mean, most arts administrators, especially when we have a lot of people who have master’s degrees in arts administration, they’ve dedicated their lives to arts. And you’re certainly not doing that for the money. You’re doing that because you care passionately about arts in this country and people who work in this company, the number one, first thing we look at is, is this person passionate about the arts and putting and pushing the arts forward? Are they passionate about that? Because if you’re not passionate about that, you’re not going to get past the first round intern interview here. And then if you have that, then we say, okay, is this person curious? Is this person a problem solver? Is this person right brain and left brain who can tell a story but can also use data? And then, okay, if you’re an arts lover and you’re curious and you’re quantitative and you’re analytical, then okay, you could be a good person to work here.
And so when I started the company, I didn’t know anything about hiring people. I just knew what I liked and I just knew that I could we’re in this moment in time when all of a sudden you needed to have an email strategy. You needed to use social media to tell your story. You needed a website, and you can do all those things really badly. It’s very easy to do all those things really badly. And believe me, I did all those things really badly and I learned from being bad at it, and I kept getting opportunities to retry it. And now we have 42 people who are sitting here learning and making mistakes and iterating and getting better. And we have to be able to apply that to, we could do digital marketing for pharmaceutical companies. I’d probably make a lot more money, but I wouldn’t be nearly as happy.

Jenn Harris: And sparked. And then also you, you’re not sparked from the content. So you’re not getting excited about the idea you come up with as much as if it is for something that you super love.

Erik Gensler: Well, normally the last question I ask is very arts administration focused.

Jenn Harris: I love it.

Erik Gensler: We call it your CI to Eye moment, which is, if you could broadcast the leadership teams of arts organizations, what advice would you provide? But I don’t know if that’s so relevant here about giving, because I mean the advice, I thought you guys gave interesting advice about how to work with actors there. But if you want to give advice to arts, arts administrators, this is your moment.

Jeff Hiller: I’ve worked with mainly good ones. I would have one bit of advice.

Jenn Harris: Oh my God, I can’t wait.

Jeff Hiller: Which is just that no matter what your arts organization, you’re reliant on an artist, be it the opera singer or the painter or the actor who’s coming to your regional theater or whatever. And sometimes I think arts administrators, because you’ve got no budget and you’ve got to sell these tickets and stuff, you’re worried so much about the bottom line and about the tickets and everything. You forget to be respectful to the artists that are bringing the product that you’re trying to sell. And I know just in the acting world when it comes to regional theaters, people will say, oh, don’t go there. Don’t take that job because it’s in a weirdo town. The people are terrible. Company management is cruddy, a mess, and the housing is crap. But I know several theaters where people say, look, the housing is terrible. You don’t get much pay.

Jenn Harris: But they’re amazing.

Jeff Hiller: But they’re so great. Ask so-and-so, he’ll show you around town.

Jenn Harris: 100%. 100%.

Jeff Hiller: And that’s free. That’s not about like, oh, we’ve got a gorgeous condo. That’s about you being like, Hey, I’m here to pick you up. I’m smiling. I’m saying thank you. If your couch falls apart, I’m going to come over and help put a brick underneath it.

Jenn Harris: And it’s also like, we’re not saying you don’t need people. We’re not doing this. We need people. You’re amazing. We love you. So it’s like, no, no. We get that when we get on stage from the audience. I don’t need, I’d rather just be left alone the majority of the time. But just that, especially when you’re out of town, you’re not in your home, you’re in a city you’ve never been to, you don’t know where things are. And it’s just that little bit of just niceness. Even if we’re a little like, well, where do I get groceries?

Erik Gensler: It’s the same thing for how we work with clients. It’s like the clients that are kind and appreciative and make it enjoyable to work with them. They just get so much more, you’re going to work so much harder for them.

Jeff Hiller: And other digital marketing companies who are not warm to their customers and not relatable and not in contact, you’re going to leave them.

Erik Gensler: And it’s the line that I always say, oops. It’s like Elaine Stritch’s one woman show, the first line. Do you know what that is? When she walked on stage? She goes, it’s like the old prostitute said, it’s not the work, it’s the stairs.

Jenn Harris: I can’t.

Erik Gensler: It’s always the stairs. The work is not that hard. Anyone can do the work. It’s the stairs. It’s how the people treat you, how’s the company manager, there’s always going to be BS that you’re going to deal with, but it’s just like, it’s that extra —

Jeff Hiller: And that is the exclusive reason I’m not a prostitute.

Erik Gensler: Touche. Touche, Jenn?

Jenn Harris: Alright. Touche.

Erik Gensler: Touche, touche, touche. That’s a good place to end. Awesome. Thank you so much for being here.

Jenn Harris: Thank you so much.

Erik Gensler: Did you enjoy the podcast? Please join Capacity Interactive on email and on Facebook so you can be the first to know when we release new episodes. You’ll also get content all about digital marketing for the arts, and you’ll be the first to know about our webinars, workshops, and our annual digital marketing bootcamp. Thanks for listening.

About Our Guests
Jeff Hiller
Jeff Hiller
Actor, New York City

Jeff Hiller is a hilarious New York City based actor. You may recognize Jeff from 30 Rock or Bloody Bloody Andrew Jackson. Jeff co-hosts with Jenn the hysterical podcast, Touche, which touches on being in the middle of their lives and their careers.

Read more
Jenn Harris
Jenn Harris
Actor, New York City

Jenn Harris is a hilarious New York City based actor. You may recognize Jenn from the film Gayby or Off-Broadway’s Silence! The Musical. Jenn co-hosts with Jeff the hysterical podcast, Touche, which touches on being in the middle of their lives and their careers.

Read more

Related Episodes

Authenticity in Action
EP 130
Jun 27, 2024
Authenticity in Action

What sets successful DEIBA initiatives apart? It’s not about checking boxes; it’s about prioritizing authenticity and thoughtfulness.

Some of the most impactful DEIBA work in our industry begins with arts organizations fostering genuine community partnerships and engaging audiences in meaningful ways. In this episode, we discuss inspiring examples of how embracing these principles can lead to profound, positive changes in our organizations.

Staging Classical Works for Today’s Audiences
EP 126
Apr 16, 2024
Staging Classical Works for Today’s Audiences

What do we do when “the classics”—those canonical treasures that embody the rich traditions of our genres—start to feel outdated for today’s audiences, or even at odds with our missions?

In today’s episode, we take a close look at celebrated works from the classical Western canon that include harmful portrayals of non-Western cultures, and hear how one artist is taking action to prune and preserve the art he loves.

Don’t Miss an episode

Don’t Miss an episode

Subscribe to CI to Eye and have your insight and motivation delivered on demand.