TONYS WEEK: Victor Vazquez, Casting Director, CATS: The Jellicle Ball

Victor Vazquez: Who you see on stage matters more and more, I think, in today’s world. And I think that casting for me has political and cultural implications.

Monica Holt: Hey everyone. This is Monica Holt and welcome back to Arts Unscripted. It’s Tony Awards Week, so we’re thrilled to be celebrating the creative forces behind some of this season’s wonderful Broadway productions. My guest today is Victor Vazquez, founder of X Casting and the casting director behind CATS: The Jellicle Ball. This is a production that really began as a question on what happens when the world of ballroom meets the music of Andrew Lloyd Webber and it has since become one of the most joyful, moving, and talked-about shows on Broadway this season. As Victor puts it, The Jellicle Ball just creates glitter. Let’s dive in.

Victor Vazquez, welcome to Arts Unscripted. Thank you so much for being here today. I am so excited to talk to you.

Victor Vazquez: Same.

Monica Holt: Well, we like to start every conversation getting to know you a little bit. So could you talk to us about how art first came into your life?

Victor Vazquez: Yeah, I think it’s really through literature. I remember my community library — I grew up in South LA and around the corner there was Hollydale Library and that was my little library where I would go and I’d spend a lot of time there. And I did a lot of reading. I mean, I was almost friends with the librarian. So I felt really safe and welcome there. But in terms of the traditional theater, my first ticket ever was Lion King touring at 17 years old at the Pantages Theater. Yeah.

Monica Holt: I love hearing you talk about the library and hearing you talk about books because when I think about the work you do now in casting, all of it goes back to looking at storytelling, who gets to tell the story, how those stories get to be seen on stage. I’m curious, would you talk us through a little bit about what led you to the world of casting?

Victor Vazquez: Accident. Just pure accident.

Monica Holt: Really?

Victor Vazquez: Yep. Right after my first theater experience… I remember I went with a church group and I only went because I had a crush on this boy and that’s the only reason I went. But then I fell in love with what was happening on stage. I remember running out of this church van to go home and do AOL dial-up and search, “Who is Julie Taymor?” “What is a director?” Because in my world, I understood directing only in cinema. To see this live stage production and think that there’s a job out there that’s called ‘the director’… I immediately became engrossed in it. And I had already applied for schools as an English major. So I went to UC Irvine as an English major, but then I added a theater degree my second year by taking a directing class. I immediately discovered that I was not an actor. I’m not one of those casting directors that first had an acting career. No interest in acting. I took one acting class and I was like, “Yeah, this is not for me” immediately. But then I took a directing class and I was like, “Whoa, this is exactly what I want to dive into.” And then it’s just — fast forward to four years later graduating and immediately realizing that I didn’t want to be a director.

Monica Holt: What was that like?

Victor Vazquez: Well, I just realized the sort of nomadic life that a director must have, very similar to an actor, where you kind of go where the jobs are and if you want to build a career, you’ve got to do that somewhere in a major city and then do the regional thing, build up the resume, go where the work is. And I was just so immediately turned off by that concept because I thought, no, I actually don’t do so well if my life doesn’t have some sort of rooting system. And I’m so glad that I knew that then.

And so then I worked at Center Theatre Group immediately out of undergrad in their education and community partnerships department. I then went over to Pasadena Playhouse and worked in the artistic department. All of a sudden while I was there, I got to dig my hands into the process of making theater, what it’s like to work with writers and directors and really usher the process along. I got to work with casting directors in casting new play and musical developments. And that’s when I was like, “Oh, I think I see myself in that role right there.” And then I transferred from Pasadena Playhouse essentially to Arena Stage as a casting director [and] line producer.

Monica Holt: Well, that’s what I wanted to ask you a little bit about because having a resident casting director — and at a theater as large as Arena Stage in DC — is… I would imagine that that gives you a little bit of that grounding and foundation that you were talking about in residency that might not have been there immediately freelancing and going project to project. So what did that home give you in those years?

Victor Vazquez: First of all, the job was profound. I mean, I got to do it for three years. Arena Stage has three stages. It’s the first regional theater in the country. It has this historic background to it. And then to be there in this political storm. I got the job and I moved there in March 2017. That was two months into Trump’s first administration. And so DC is this city that operates and transforms every four years depending on the administration because people move in and out based on the jobs, based on the party that’s running government. It was just a very specific, powerful time in my life. I think it really grounded my ethos, if not fortified it, because I was in charge of overseeing the casting of over 180 roles per year. And this was not just on stage but also in development. And we were working with developing, they’re called the power plays.

And so developing these potent political plays with writers like Ayad Akhtar and directors from all over the country. And so I got to sit with these people and just really imagine and dream. But also, the White House was three, four blocks away from our theater and knowing that our audience consisted of not just politicians, but Supreme Court justices and Congress members and senators and lobbyists — it’s the epicenter of power. And so I immediately had this realization that who we see matters because in this radical time when the rhetoric has shifted dramatically and people are being talked about in such a tremendously different way than previous parties or previous administrations ever had, instead of feeling powerless, I felt I get to help design who these people get to see embodying these stories.

Monica Holt: That’s really meaningful to hear you say that and thinking back on those years in DC. And Arena, as you said, it looms large in regional theater. It looms large in DC. And I think having that understanding of really the power you were holding, too, in that space is hugely impactful to think about. I’m curious because coming out of that is really when you founded X Casting, and I’m wondering what that creative decision-making process was and the mission and vision you had for the company when you founded it, how that sprung from or just grew out of what you were learning when you were in DC.

Victor Vazquez: Yeah, it was really inspired. I think DC for me was just being ushered through this time and space by a leader like Molly Smith. And if people don’t know, Molly Smith was the artistic director at Arena Stage. But Molly is a woman in theater, artistic director, a lesbian. It’s just like, she’s gay and she’s out and she’s in this position for 20-something years. Back when artistic directors — I mean, there still is such a lacking of women in those positions, but even 24 years ago, 25 years ago, even more. And so I had the best teacher. She was such a powerhouse and working for her felt like my grad school. The tremendous trust that I had from her, the belief that I had from her, it lit a fire under me to really follow in those footsteps because you can’t sort of walk behind someone like that, a titan like Molly, and not catch some of those sparks.

I decided I am just going to really soak in that energy because, how does a son of Mexican immigrants from Los Angeles move to New York City and say “I’m starting a casting company” at 30? It was a radical thought. Back then I just sort of was looking around and I thought, here’s this field — casting in itself is a field — and it’s so mysterious. We don’t really know much about it, but we know it’s part of the process. And I just thought, okay, so I’m looking around and I’m just like, okay, I see a lot of folks who have a tremendous legacy in this field who are still part of it, but it felt very homogenous. And I just thought like, well, I want to really enter this community, but I felt like such an outsider. I felt like I had to do a lot of things alone. I didn’t grow up in the same sort of model that a lot of people in casting now do where you become an intern, then you become an assistant, then you become an associate, then you become a casting director. And so it felt like, okay, I think there’s a sort of underdog here.

Monica Holt: For sure.

Victor Vazquez: I remember really turning it over and over with a lot of my colleagues. I visualized and I said, “I feel like I’m standing at this dam and there’s a hole in the wall and there’s nobody else around me and I get to sort of plug it with my finger if I want to or I can just choose to walk away.” And so I started X Casting in 2019 and I expected to fail. I knew in 2019. I said, “I am going to try this and I am going to do it until it fails because I know it will, but at the very least I’m going to be able to say that I tried.”

Monica Holt: That takes some serious courage.

Victor Vazquez: Yeah, but it’s also what was modeled for me. It’s like, my dad is an immigrant and he moved to California and he picked almonds. And then he worked as a DJ. And then he worked as a car repairman. And then he owned his own car service mechanic shop. And then he became a car salesman and then became a house salesman and then now he’s a real estate broker. I experienced having a father who just tried and failed, tried and failed, tried and failed. And it always was a sort of revelation to the next step. And so for me, it just felt like, oh, I’ve got to get through this in order to figure out the next step.

And I’m telling you, I’m expected to fail because I just didn’t see anybody else doing it like I was. But now I’ve met people — there are other people that are doing it who are young and outside of that sort of homogenous space and they’re bringing their own perspective, their own point of view, their own background into it. And I’m excited by that. But for me, my current vision now is I want to be of service and I want to support artists who are telling, doing these bold stories. And whether that’s in theater or TV and film, I want to collaborate with those people. I want to bring my expertise and help support them by saying, “Let’s get the perfect cast here for your work.”

Monica Holt: Well, and I think that intentionality and purpose is so beautifully woven into what I’d love to talk to you a bit about, which is CATS: The Jellicle Ball being wildly and well-deservedly celebrated this season in New York. I understand that you were essentially in the room when the concept for Jellicle Ball was born. Can you walk us through that story?

Victor Vazquez: Yeah. I mean, I got a call from Meiyin Wang. She was the producer at the PAC before the PAC was even open.

Monica Holt: And that’s PAC NYC, which is the Perelman Center which was built next to the World Trade Center Memorial. It’s a beautiful performing arts center in downtown.

Victor Vazquez: But yeah, I got a call while I was in a taxi in New York City. I don’t remember if it was the end of 2021 or top of 2022, but I just remember being pitched this idea for a workshop and I thought, “Okay, yeah.” And it didn’t really make much sense to me then, but it’s because nobody knew what it was. It was a hypothetical. It was a question. It was an experiment. And I really loved that idea that there was no certainty that it would even be a production. It was a question and it was like, “What happens if this meets this?” And I love that I was invited into the process from the get-go with Bill and then Zhailon joined.

Monica Holt: And that’s Bill Rauch and Zhailon Levingston, the co-directors of The Jellicle Ball.

Victor Vazquez: Yeah. I loved tossing around this question with them because it truly defines exactly what I’m saying that my intention is. It’s like, I want to collaborate and be very hands-on with artists as they’re developing, as they’re creating.

Monica Holt: That’s right. It’s great to hear about that inception and I’m glad that you talked about how the PAC was barely formed and Bill Rauch was finding ways to bring creativity to light in a space that really didn’t know what it was yet. Do you have a first memory or experience with Cats or the music from the show that predates The Jellicle Ball?

Victor Vazquez: Yeah, I was an undergrad. I was in a theater history class inside this small theater at UC Irvine watching the original filmed version of it. But I remember just watching and just being like, “This is absurd.”

Monica Holt: Totally.

Victor Vazquez: You know? Like, this is upsetting.

Monica Holt: I’ve told people before that my first experience with Cats was as a kid and I was a kid who loved musical theater until an adult dressed like a cat came up the aisle and was near me and then just — trauma for life. But I loved the music always. And so I mean, listen, we talk on this podcast probably too much about the Andrew Lloyd Webber Renaissance of it all and a creator who is saying, “You know what? I’m game. Let’s figure out how this makes sense for the next generation for people today.” And that is a beautiful thing and I love that you phrased it as it was a question, it wasn’t a certainty because what a powerful thing for a creative process.

Victor Vazquez: But even in casting it, I love to reference back to Bill’s inception in theater because if people don’t know, I believe Bill went to Harvard, studied theater, but I don’t think theater was a degree at Harvard. So I think it was like a club, but essentially what came out of there was this methodology that’s now Cornerstone Theater Company.

And if people don’t know about Cornerstone Theater Company, it’s a theater company in Los Angeles, [it] used to have a home in downtown, but now it’s nomadic. Cornerstone Theater Company was created by Bill and friends, I think, leaving undergrad, traveling from Harvard across the country in a blue van, I think. And sort of stationing in different cities or communities or towns along the way and picking classic texts to then reinvent with that local community in mind. And then the text would be sort of rewritten in a sense to have the intervention of the local topics and stories of that community.

And so I studied Cornerstone methodology in undergrad. I attended their trainings. I went off for two summers with them in my early 20s to do theater in California. And so that methodology was integral to my own understanding of theater. And so when I got to work with Bill on this, I was just like, “I think I know how you work and so I am going to apply a lot of this methodology into the designing of this strategy for casting and I don’t need you to even tell me about it because I think I know how to speak your language.”

And so when we first had any chance to audition, we invited ballroom folks to be the first to be seen. And so our first open call was exclusively open only to ballroom folks.

Monica Holt: And what did you learn about the ballroom community’s relationship to Broadway when you issued that invitation?

Victor Vazquez: I didn’t think there was an existing relationship at all.

Monica Holt: Okay, interesting.

Victor Vazquez: I think there was a lot of skepticism and hesitation. I think at the time also, even four years ago, with Beyonce’s album, and even just the show Legendary was on HBO — I know that at the time ballroom, even with Pose, was having a sort of entry point into entertainment, but not yet theater. Not yet Broadway. Not yet Off-Broadway. And so for me, I just was like, I don’t necessarily know the answer of how you bridge… But I know this methodology and this is exactly what that methodology is meant for. And so let me use that toolkit to, at the very least, approach this thoughtfully. Because if we don’t move into a production, at least we’ve built [a] relationship.

Monica Holt: That’s right.

Victor Vazquez: And that is also meaningful.

Monica Holt: Absolutely. It’s so interesting. I realize before I keep us going, in case folks haven’t seen or heard about The Jellicle Ball, maybe we should give them just a little bit of explanation. And you will give a better explanation than I, but what I will say basically is Cats is the Andrew Lloyd Webber musical now and forever at the Winter Garden Theatre as remembered from the ’80s, which was humans dressed up as cats on stage telling these stories based on the T.S. Eliot poem. But what CATS: The Jellicle Ball is, is really a celebration of ballroom culture — and I would say as the centering point –using the music of Andrew Lloyd Webber. So I’d be curious how you, when you’re talking to someone for the first time, describe what The Jellicle Ball is.

Victor Vazquez: Yeah, I think it’s this chemistry reaction or it’s like this sort of chemistry of these two different elements that have never interacted with one another.

Monica Holt: I like that a lot.

Victor Vazquez: And I think what we’re finding is that it creates glitter.

Monica Holt: 100%. What a beautiful way of saying that. Yes.

Victor Vazquez: It just creates glitter. It’s this explosion of a story. Because Cats is plotless except for this simple through-line where there’s a ball for the cats and one cat is being chosen as the Jellicle Choice by the end of the evening.

And so with ballroom being sort of overlaid into it in this sort of perfect way, we don’t change much. The music remains the music, the choreography —

Monica Holt: It’s remarkable.

Victor Vazquez: I agree. I think it is remarkable. And I think that that was the question, does it work from the inception?

Monica Holt: Yeah. I have to say, we were talking to Cody Renard Richard, who is the PSM for CATS: The Jellicle Ball. And I said to him, and it’s still true: the show has never made sense to me until this version because the community piece of it in addition, that layering… When I think about Gus’s song and the way that that’s been beautifully envisioned on stage, it is so meaningful in a way that I’m not sure I was emotionally connected before. But also when I just think about the industry and when we say, “Let’s revive a wonderful show and bring new life to it and new energy,” it just feels like in a lot of ways this can be the model for that, that can really be a re-imagining. And it requires the original artists to be on board, which Andrew Lloyd Webber was, and that’s a celebration in and of itself too.

Victor Vazquez: I’m really glad you brought up Gus because I’d love to sit in that topic for a moment. Because the development of this required a lot of different questions. The first was, who is Old Deuteronomy? Who is Gus the Theater Cat? Who is Grizabella? Immediately from the beginning, I remember one of our first conversations was just like, well, André De Shields has to be one of them. It’s just like, how do we make that happen? And we also allowed him to pick what role he wanted —

Monica Holt: Oh, wonderful.

Victor Vazquez: — from the very beginning. And so he got to pick between Gus and Old Deuteronomy and he chose Old Deuteronomy. And so then that allowed us to see the second question: then who is Gus?

And I remember just like… I was in San Francisco watching another show that I was working on and I just was stressing out about it, Monica. I was just like, who is Gus? Who’s Gus? Who is Gus? And I was just researching and reading everything I could. And sure, we have our traditional list of ideas and then there’s a lot of folks on it that are possibilities, but nobody felt like it struck the right chord yet.

And I think for a lot of people listening, pitching and casting is very sort of normal to our process. Our process isn’t just like sitting through auditions. A lot of it is very strategically thinking about each of these characters in such deep thoughtful ways where, as you can tell, I was just stressing about this moment.

And so I remember one morning I was on my computer and I just started reading… I don’t even know how I came across this article from the Hollywood Reporter from 2017, I believe, about Junior. And it was about Junior’s thoughts about Pose and how he wasn’t invited into the process and how he felt slighted. How he felt like, “How could you tell this story without inviting me into the process?” And I remember just being so enraptured by this article and I immediately was like, “It’s him.”

And I just wrote a pitch email to Bill and Zhailon and I was like, “Here’s the reasons why.” I remember just being so excited to have this pitch email where I’m like, “Okay, great. I’m linking the article. Here’s some videos of Junior speaking.” Because there’s nothing existing of him singing. I shot it out. We immediately start going back and forth with the creative team and everyone’s in agreement.

And initially, right from that beginning, I said, “It’s important that we note the article and what Junior has said because he has felt like people have extracted from ballroom. And so how can we think about our process in a way that’s not extractive? And so we should not be making an offer. We should be making an invitation for him to come learn about what we’re doing.” And so I said, “How do we actually start a relationship with Junior LaBeija? That is the question.” And so our co-casting director, Sujotta — once we were like, “Okay, how do we get ahold of Junior?” because he doesn’t have an agent or a manager — she went to a ball in the Bronx and she went looking for the House of LaBeija and she started talking to the members of the House of LaBeija and saying, “I’m a casting director. We’re looking for Junior. This is what our intention is.” She then had to have a conversation with one of them on the phone before we even got his phone number.

And so then we then had a phone call with Junior, just Sujotta and I, where we talked to him about the project and we said, “Would you be open to just coming in? We have a workshop coming up. You don’t have to be involved. We’d just like for you to come and observe, see what we’re doing. And if it’s of interest, we can speak more.” So he decided to come. We all met him and then after the workshop, we then made the offer.

Monica Holt: The consideration, the care, the collective effort around taking care of someone — it’s not a means to an end. It’s just as a human being that you are in existence with. And that connection, you feel that when you see the show. You feel the care at its core. And yes, it is all glitter and celebration too, and that makes it an amazing evening out. But it is moving, just the fact that it exists that thoughtfully. As we’ve just talked about, the casting directors shape every performance an audience sees, but when the curtain falls, so to speak, how do you think about your relationship with the work once the show is kind of on its feet and audiences are taking ownership and impression from it? And what might you want audiences to know about your work?

Victor Vazquez: Yeah. As casting directors, we often begin at the inception of a project, whether it’s a film, an independent film, a musical, a play. We’re brought in pretty early. And again, oftentimes we have no idea [if] this thing will see the light of day. It’s not just common for Cats, it’s common across the board. So our work in a lot of sense exists oftentimes in a hypothetical sort of container. And I think that right now we’re sort of in an inflection point. We see that casting is and has been recognized by the Emmys, is now being recognized by the Film Academy with the Oscars, and yet we still do not have a category at the Tonys.

Monica Holt: That’s right.

Victor Vazquez: And that’s not for a lack of trying. My colleagues who have been doing this kind of work for decades have been advocating for a category in the Tonys, but I just think that there’s a collective conversation that I really want more and more people to join because it can’t just be us. And I think part of our jobs as casting directors today is to tell our story better about our process. And this is why for me it’s important to share what that process is like on social media.

Monica Holt: Absolutely.

Victor Vazquez: It’s important for us to help the audience and the field understand how we do our jobs and what we do, because our job is very private. We work so intimately with our directors, with our creative teams, and that work is incubated over years. And then when opening night comes, the show is running and we’re still doing our work in the background. Trust me. We’re on retainer because there’s a lot of work still to be done, but yet we aren’t being recognized the way that a sound designer or a lighting designer or a costume designer is. And I think that for me, what I want the world to understand is that I really believe that casting is curatorial, is that it has design elements to it. How could it not? I mean, who you see on stage matters more and more, I think, in today’s world. I think that casting for me has political and cultural implications. When we think about story, story is the number one thing that we consume on a daily basis as humans. It’s everywhere. And if we think about casting as this sort of cultural-making engine, then these people are responsible for who you get to see on your screen, on your iPad while you’re watching Netflix, who you get to see in theater… yet the work remains invisible.

Monica Holt: Yeah. And even as you talked about the process earlier, you said there is this curtain, this opacity, between the audience’s understanding, but even folks who are involved but maybe not as intimately in the production, of understanding what happens in those sessions and that development. And I’m grateful that you and others who are in your generation are sharing more because as we go into Tonys season with so much to celebrate, there are some people missing in terms of who is being seen during these celebrations. So I’m grateful for you to speak to that and I agree. I hope that folks who aren’t necessarily in casting themselves understand how they could be advocates and allies for telling that story better about how art is created together. I would love to hear from you, what is giving you hope on the day-to-day about Broadway and some of the transformation you’re seeing, or the arts field at large as you’re looking at young actors and how they’re growing up in the modern climate?

Victor Vazquez: Two things. I think audiences are really giving me a lot of hope. I think that it’s so beautiful and great and I’m still always so in awe and shock really to see how many people are still going to the theater. I look at the numbers weekly and I just always have a moment of gratitude for all those thousands of people going and buying tickets on Broadway or Off-Broadway. I’m grateful for audiences who just continue to invest in these moments of little transformations and particularly in experiencing something live.

I’m also really grateful for actors. I love actors. My allegiance is to actors. I work with directors, but my allegiance is to actors. And I’m always just advocating for them and their rights as humans, as artists, because that is such a difficult investment to make in a life, particularly in this day and age. And I honor particularly the theater actor who invests in a craft that they’re not even sure if it will play out. God, if you have that calling, follow it and I want to know who you are.

Monica Holt: Well said. Well, we have reached our quickfire culture segment, which is how we end each conversation. What is one piece of culture right now — a book, a TV show, a performance on Broadway, a TikTok trend — that you’re currently obsessed with?

Victor Vazquez: Okay. This is last year, I think, but The Telepathy Tapes. Oh my God.

Monica Holt: Wait, I don’t know this.

Victor Vazquez: If people don’t know about this podcast, she’s a filmmaker, a documentarian, and a journalist, I believe, who’s investigating this question of kids with autism who have telepathic abilities. And the question doesn’t end there. It sort of opens up into this tremendous ecosystem of totally different paradigms of how neurotypical folks see the world and how folks on the spectrum see the world and how vastly different experiences we’re having, but also how we can participate in a different paradigm collectively. So The Telepathy Tapes rocked my world. I recommend it to everybody. It’s the most insane 10-episode podcast I’ve ever experienced in my life.

Monica Holt: Okay, great. Great recommendation. If you could go back in time, what live performance or event do you wish you could have been present at?

Victor Vazquez: There’s this Mexican singer named Juan Gabriel and for anybody that doesn’t know them, Juan Gabriel — no longer with us on this earth — was this very out, loud, queer, but private, iconic, legendary singer at the status of Beyoncé from Mexico. And one of his concerts at the Palacio de Bella Artes in Mexico City, it was just so epic.

Monica Holt: Great answer. What is one free resource in any field that everyone should check out?

Victor Vazquez: I love libraries. I mentioned it a little earlier on.

Monica Holt: I was wondering if that was going to be your answer. I mean, it’s where we started.

Victor Vazquez: And so, libraries. I’m actually going to the New York Public Library archives for performing arts.

Monica Holt: Yeah, the Lincoln Center — Yeah.

Victor Vazquez: Yeah. I’m going in a few weeks because I’m looking at the archives for the original Broadway production of Cats.

Monica Holt: Cool. Have the best time. We love New York Public Library on this podcast. We love libraries and we love the Library for the Performing Arts, so thank you. And then our last question is: if you could today broadcast one message to executive directors, leadership teams, staff, and boards at thousands of arts organizations, what would that message be?

Victor Vazquez: I would advocate for casting budgets. So hear me out…

Monica Holt: I love this. Wait, this is good. This is great.

Victor Vazquez: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that more theaters should have resident casting directors because a resident casting director serves also as a de facto community engagement person for your actors in your community. And that person is going to get to know all the actors locally and is going to help you curate the best performers for your productions on a local level. People don’t do it and I think it’s a missed opportunity because again, it’s what can connect you, your theater, to your local actor community. And I think a lot of theaters exist in a very exclusive sort of relationship to their actors, local actor community, and that’s not necessarily the best. But if you have somebody whose job it is to foster that relationship between your theater and the community, then I think you’re better for it.

Monica Holt: That is great advice. Thank you. Victor, thank you so much for making the time. What a joy to spend just a short amount of time with you. Thank you for all that you’ve shared.

Victor Vazquez: Thanks, Monica. It was such a pleasure. You were such a great podcaster. Thank you.

Monica Holt: That’s really nice.

Monica Holt: Thank you for listening to Arts Unscripted. If you enjoyed today’s conversation, please take a moment to rate us or leave a review. A nice comment goes a long way in helping other people discover the show. And if you haven’t already, click the subscribe button wherever you get your podcasts. We’ve got some great episodes coming your way and I don’t want you to miss them.

A huge thanks to our team behind the scenes, including Karen McConarty, Yeaye Stemn, Stephanie Medina, Jess Berube, and Rachel Purcell Fountain. Our music is by whoisuzo. Don’t forget to follow Capacity on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn, TikTok, and YouTube for regular content to help you market smarter. You can also sign up for Capacity’s newsletter at capacityinteractive.com. And I hope you’ll reach out to us and let us know what you think and who you’d like to hear from next on Arts Unscripted. I’m Monica Holt. Thanks for listening.